Help a Brotha out! Plexi content...

Ok, guys. I've asked about this a few times when commenting on other people's posts, but no one's responded yet. Here's what I'm hearing:

On all the plexi models, to varying degrees, I hear this phasy sound when the gains are turned up past 2:00 or when boosted. The higher the gain, the more washy the sound. The phasing sound is ever present on the low strings and whenever I give any note a good vibrato.

I bring it up because i don't hear this sound on ANY of the sound clips on here. They all sound nice and saggy and great, but not phasy.

Do you guys hear this sound on your plexi models? Is it inherent in the sound? I'm starting to wonder if something is wrong with those patches on my 11r.

Suggestions?

Hmmm... So it's JUST the plexi models? I assume you mean in stand alone mode you are experiencing this...?

You can send me one of your presets that is exhibiting this and I'll be happy to check it out and play a clip or something to help you determine whether it's your unit or what...?

Not sure what else to try though of course the levels need to be checked and if you are running anything in the FX loop or not that could be something to check too but that's assuming its not JUST the plexi models.

Just holler at me via PM if you want to email me something I'm happy to try and help you determine what the issue is if I can!?

Thanks for replying. More details are in your PM box. Yes, it's pretty much just the Plexi models. I'm not running anything in the loop save a Planet Waves patch cable to allow it to act as a solo boost.

I've not heard the phasing on anything outside the Plexi Models save the DC Vintage OD (which is HAWT). it's got the plexi preamp though, which may account for why there's some phasing there too.

it's just weird. Seems to be more a part of the low end than the higher strings... unless i give them a good shake. Vibrato seems to bring out the phasing a bit.
Mostly, i want to make sure I'm not just hearing things!

Can you post a clip and the preset you're using?

Didn't I read over on the DUC forums that the phasing issue is probably due to the fact that the amp is modeled so precisely, that when a Plexi has a jumper on both channels, that you will get the some phasing when the plexi amp is cranked up full throttle, pushing the amp hard?


.

This is true....a REAL PLexi jumped does the same thing.....

VaiSatch, Mikefont and Eman:

Here's a brief morning sound sample of the two main rigs I use. I've included screen captures of the settings. These are straight amp sounds, nothing added to them. I didn't even level them out

The first clip is the DC Vintage OD (plexi pre/AC30 power) patch. The second section is just the Plexi Variac.

I tried to spend most of my time on lower register riffage (and meadily meadilies) as that is where I hear the phasing sound most predominantly. I translates to the MP3 as well. I can accept the inherent phasing that comes with a gained out plexi, but I've not noticed it this much in other people's gained-out-plexi clips. That what leads me to question.

Here's the link: http://www.box.net/shared/zbvhl5dqa3

Thanks guys.

I noticed something like this almost immediately with my new 11R. For me it was when I sustain low power chords - after a few seconds of sustain I get really annoying phasing. Choice of cab seems to make a big difference (it seemed to go away for me with the 20W cab).
There is a long discussion on this over on the Avid forums. Avid folks seem to believe this is the noise gate causing this, and that dialling the release time on the gate all the way counter-clockwise (10ms?) might help.

Phil! I'm sooooo glad you hear it too! I heard it less with the V30 cab, but i also didn't like the mid-range there. The G25 sounds wonderful to my ears, just the weird phasey thing. I leave the noise gate completely off as I'm a 'volume knob clean channel' guy. I like to be able to have full range with dynamics and deal with whatever noise there is. Should I dial it back regardless of whether I'm using it or not?

Hey guys, this very same topic was posted over on the DUC forums...give it a read if you get a minute.....

Fuzzy Phasing on the Plexi

It looks like one of the conclusions to the problem was adjusting the gate settings for the amp.
I am not home right now to test this out, but it is something that I will check out for myself and see if I am getting it too....


.

Phil et al.- I think this is the thread over at Avid that you're referencing: http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=297502&highlight=phase+plexi

His results sound the same as mine. Weird sound after a bit of sustain. I noticed it in the plexi patch v.1, but it's even more present in v.2. I don't use the noise gate, and find it present regardless of where the speaker break-up is. Switching to the G20 cabinet makes it worse. I also don't use the noise gate, as I stated above.

Thoughts?
m

Mikefont - I just read through that article and it's the same thing I'm experiencing. The only catch is that I run the noise gate entirely off all the time, and I've only recently had option to add speaker break up.

What do you guys think? Vaisatch - would you still like me to email you the rig file to monkey with?

If it's related to the gate in any way, try using -50 with 30ms. That gate took me forever to figure out what would work with it. I almost always use a dbx/od/some type of tube preamp so never noticed so much but they aren't real tight unless I dial them cleaner. I always turn my guitar vol to 5 on plexi type stuff whether real or modeled/use neck or split...

TLTD - I'm almost certain the phasing issue has nothing to do with the gate, as I leave the gate off all the time. I'll try your settings though and see if it helps.

I used to leave the gate off because I couldn't get anything to work but I always stayed in the -25 range. Apparently, the Eleven Rack is going more by the signal to noise ratio than decibels. Then I realized no matter what I did with the outboard gate there would be this weird seashore like sound that would start to come in with the signal. I always thought it was still outboard and sometimes I can just dial it out but sometimes you want that tone but have to put up with the noise that is definitely coming from the modeler. With the expansion pack DYN3 you SHOULD be able to do what I do with my compressor but put it at the end of the signal. I could do this by putting my compressor in the loop but I' not sure it's going to kill the tube noises that way so am looking forward to the expansion pack to try the DYN3 as a gate. It SHOULD work. But I have been able to work with it as described.

Just throwing this out there, I used to use Monster cables and the noise was much worse I remember that now...You? I switched to Mogami Platinum, much better signal.

..........AH I hear it now...Yep...Like a rotating speaker almost. Definitely the amp, doesn't matter if all the knobs are down or what...I think the intention of the modelers are to provide this sound for your chords/pick attack but if you let it ring out the algorithm starts over and loops, slowing down with the volume. Pretty much tried everything guitar in, outboard stuff in (with the amp modeler still on of course). Turned on my limiter and it gave me more time before it was noticeable but using my compressor gate the way I usually do sounded pretty trippy and brought it out A LOT.
•Maybe Browntown is based on Dr. Emmet Brown's custom Back to the Future rig because that's what it reminds me of.
Only thing for now is use DYN3 as a limiter (pre amp/cab)if you of course have the expansion. But if you are ending a song with a 20 second guitar chord you will have a problem unless you can somehow keep the signal from fading. On the plus side it sounds kind of cool if you do a wide vibrato at the same pace as it's happening.

A: sounds like an old plexi to me
B: not so much phasey as noise coming into play as the signal decays
C: Have you tried different guitars.....I assume you are using humbuckers but even with HBs, some guitars are more noisy than others, I have one guitar that sounds great (a les paul btw but it is noisy) and another Fender HMX again with humbuckers that is less noisy.
D: vintage sound equals more "noise"
E: You may want to consider having a techy look at your guitar and see what could be done to "quiet" it....ie: shielding, quieter electronics....what pickups do you have? are you running the volume on your guitar all the way up?
F: I doubt you'd notice this "noise" much in a mix
G: I'll do some more research....but I have noted over the years that with great tube tone, comes "noise"......especially with vintage gear....its kinda what makes things sound NOT digital.
H: instead of a compressor, how about the tube screamer sim and/or white boost in front and adjust the gain of the plexi and the OD sim to get what you want........remember this is likely a reason people back in the day started boosting their amps........and manufacturers including Marshall started to make higher gain amps (even the whole jumped idea....to get longer sustain with out note decay and "noise").....a Plexi that sustains very long without an OD or Distortion pedal is not realistic........

The 11 rack sims are very authentic from what I can tell

Eman -

The guitar in question is a 2005 Les Paul with Tom Short custom PAFs. It's not perfectly quiet, but the phasy sound persists regardless of guitar choice. The sound isn't 'noise' so much as a specific phasing sound during the decay of notes.

My biggest concern is that i DON'T hear this phasing sound in other people's Plexi Variac clips. If i heard it everywhere, I would attribute it to part of the tone. But i only hear it in my clips, and in a few clips from the Avid board. And I'm not looking to get more gain from the Plexi Variac than Van Halen, which it should be able to to produce without a weird phasing sound during the sustain.

Listen to the clip Jimification uploaded last week, and then listen to mine. Same cab and mics. Mine may even have less gain. You'll hear a natural decay on Jimification's clip, and hear a weirdness in mine.

Wonder if once guitars are double or quad tracked then you don't notice. I sometimes use the Eventide Pitchfactor for doubling because it will delay the second signal so they aren't both doing it at the same time but it doesn't help. I usually use different amps anyway and dial them to sound more like Plexis but the algorhythm is definitely overdone. This is not noise we are talking about btw. It is most likely intentional but needs looking into I think but in my own opinion it is perfectly ok for how I play. Reminds be of the Beastie Boys "Fight For Your Right" opening so there's definitely some attempt in the modeler to emulate the way a real amp does this.

That what I was thinking in regarding that phasing issue. When a Plexi has both channels jumped, then you have 2 channels going at the same time. So when the Plexi is pushed hard with 2 channels overdriving, it makes sense that you would experience a phasing sound....IMO....but I am by no means an expert.

And I found a quote from a guy (for what it's worth) on another forum discussing using a jumper on a Marshall Plexi, and he posted...
"On my THD Series One Plexi (JMP style amp) the inputs are connected (jumper) internally. The interaction of the two volumes seems to have a fair amount of phase reaction. It is equal or more about setting them for tone than volume in my experience."

And if you read the following thread from vintageamps.com, these guys are discussing using a jumper on different Marshall models, and how on some you can have them sound out of phase when using a jumper on 2 channels. And these guys are using the real amps, so does it give them a bit of credibility in their comments regarding phasing?

http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&start=0&t=66848]Vintage Amps

So, is the Eleven Rack is just modeling the Plexi TOO PERFECTLY?


Also...For anyone who is interested, here is a wiki definition on the problems of something that gets out of phase...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(waves)]Phase

And here is a cool article from Sound on Sound about phase issues and comb filtering...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr08/articles/phasedemystified.htm]Sound on Sound Phase

FWIW

Edit was adding the links/articles

.

TLTD - i hear you with double-tracking. For the most part, I use the Eleven Rack live, so doubling isn't much of an option.

What's your whole signal chain from the guitar to listening back to the clips? Every little detail...

The fact that it is evident in some clips and not others is interesting. I sometimes think I hear something and sometimes not. I don't know if all the reports of the phasing issue have me trying to hear something that isn't there in my rig...

Ratter - The complete signal chain is: 2005 LP Standard > Monster cable 10' > tru Z input > (shine wah off) > (orange phaser off) > Plexi Variac > G25 cab > 121 mic on axis > Para EQ cut at 125 and 6.7K > reverb > (FX loop off) > main outs.

The clips were recorded with Logic Pro 8, no additional post anything... didn't even level the clips. The first clip is the DC Vintage OD with the same signal chain. The second, and more violent offender, is the Plexi Variac.

Again, I've read lots of different explanations for what could cause the phasing. But the thing that is most troubling is that I don't hear this phasing ON EVERYONE'S CLIPS. (caps only for emphasis, not yelling). If this were an amp that was modeled hyper perfectly, i would expect to hear that phasing decay on all of the EVH Brown Soundish clips made with a plexi variac. But I don't hear it everywhere... just on the clip that inspired a similar thread on the AVID forum, and on mine.

I'm thinking I should just upload the rig and let people play through it. I've posted the audio from it and I can hear the phasing clear as day. And the clip Jimification uploaded; very similar settings and no phasing in the sustained decay.

Thoughts?

Post the rig file and I'll record a clip with it for you...that way you can possibly rule out rig settings as a culprit.

It takes a few seconds so it won't be in some clips especially if you palm mute your guitar just before playing something else. If I had to play live, I'd make some presets with other amps, you can get the sound you want just save them as Plexi names and use M2 Lead or something (sorry not that one but that one but I do like that one a lot). I tried Browntown with green cab and ribbon mic off axis and tames it but you'd have to EQ it and it would probably sound worse than ever lol. I know one that that would fix it for sure is just get a Randall RM 4 and a Plexi module, then you are still traveling light and can put it in your loop and bypass the amp sim and save a preset that you like just for that.

ratter - here are both the DC Vintage OD rig (called Budda SD30) and the Plexi Variac Rig (called Phasy Plexi): http://www.box.net/shared/zbvhl5dqa3

I'd love to hear clips. I just experimented with my other guitars, and the phasing remains. Again, it's in the decay of notes, sometimes in vibrato, and often in the lower registers.

The phasing you hear when you artificially double track by using the same audio signal and just delaying one by a few ms is due the comb filtering that results from the periodic interference of the various harmonics. The way a sophisticated doubler algorithm (like Waves "Doubler") deals with this is to slightly detune one of the signals - not enough so that it sounds out of tune, but enough so that it eliminates the periodic interference between the signals (comb filtering).

That's what I do on the Eventide is shift one of the signals like the waves doubler. Sounds pretty cool actually, can't really tell it's just one take. The phase everyone keeps talking about is actually a sweep like a wah but very little, not cancellation or anything.